Willie is No Isiah
Comparisons have been made between Willie Randolph and Isiah Thomas. Let me say this:
Willie, I covered Isiah Thomas. I knew Isiah Thomas...Willie, you're no Isiah Thomas.
(Oh, and that's a compliment).
Thomas was under the gun from the moment he moved to the bench, but that was his own doing. The greatest difference between Randolph and Thomas is that Randolph had to manage players that Omar Minaya gave him.
Isiah coached the players that Isiah gave himself.
Certainly Randolph deserved better than to be caught somewhat off-guard by a midnight hit on the West Coast (after a win, no less). But he did survive the embarrassing tailspin from the past season and everyone knew (even Willie) that a good start this season was imperative.
It didn't happen, so off with the head.
I've often heard from people in pro sports that the best jobs are in management, because coaches are always the first to get fired. General managers -- hey, I covered Mike Milbury -- often avoid the guilotine by laying the head of the coach they hired on the chopping block first. It often pacifies the masses and buys a little time to get it right.
Isiah had already failed as the team president, with several off-target moves and questionable actions that often undermined his coaches, especially Larry Brown. So when he took over as coach, he already had two strikes against him. Isiah knew it, why do you think he was so reluctant to move to the bench? They might as well have yelled, "Dead man walkin'!" when he hit the tunnel for his first game.
And I don't buy the racism angle one bit with either of these men. But I admit I do see a similar bias: fans and the media are intolerant of people who don't win.
Oh and another way Willie is no Isiah? Isiah got tight with the right people. Somehow, he still has a job.
* *
Congratulations to the classy, hard-working Doc Rivers and the Boston Celtics. But one drawback to them winning the championship within a year of making marquee trades is that it promotes the idea that you can just do the Etch-a-Sketch shake with your roster in one summer and turn your team into a winner.
The Celtics' situation is rare (and I hope Danny Ainge sends Kevin McHale a chunk of his championship winnings). First you have to have one star-quality player, then have the assets to acquire two more and, of course, these players have to be available. It helps to have a good buddy running the team of the big-ticket player you're trying to land.
Let's just stop here and agree there is no way the Knicks can duplicate this. Not right now. But with the right decisions (some tough), you may be able to put yourself in position to do this in, say, two years.....
* *
The Knicks will have four players in for a workout Thursday, the most interesting name on the list is 7-footer DeAndre Jordan (Texas A&M). If you're local, the other interesting name is Antoine Aguido, the high-scoring guard from Hofstra.
The other two names are Dante Milligan, a 6-9 forward from UMass, and Mike Taylor, a guard from Iowa State.
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Comments (37)
Don't know about saying Willie and Isiah both did not win. Willie was the second best winning manager in Met history. He lost for about a month last season and was a game under .500 this season. He also came within a strke of the World Series. Isiah is just a failure. Willie carried himself with class, Isiah was unneccessarily arrogant. Willie was not articulate, Isiah was extremely articulate but thought he was smarter than everyone else. They should never be compared in any fashion. I think there are so few black executives in Basketball and black managers in baseball and then when you look at NY's history it is even less so people want to compare them but these two men are completely different.
Yeah, Willie Randolph just got screwed by the Mets front office and made that stupid Rev. Wright comment that was so un-Willie and so beneath a man of his character and caliber.
Zeke is just a sexual predator. A jury of his peers, NOT THE MAN, said so.
Willie has offered much to New York City and the game of baseball.
Zeke is a disgrace, a loser, and a sexual predator.
Thus end today's lesson. Do read it closely, Marbury followers. I don't want to type it for you twice.
Willie Randolph is worth 100 Isiah Thomas's, but I don't buy that it is Omar's fault that this team underachieves -- the same team was certainly good enough last year to make the playoffs if they hadn't imploded right before the end of the season. Willie may not have been solely responsible for the implosion, but he didn't get them back in the right mindset this year to put last season behind them.
Let's place the blame, though, where it belongs -- with the players. Delgado is a stiff, and Billy Wagner has shown himself to be mentally fragile. Reyes has all the talent in the world, but is under-realizing his potential. It is back to the theory that if you can't fire the players, you have to shake something up. From that perspective, firing Willie was the right move. He is the right guy in the wrong place. Getting these guys to play well, though, is his job -- not Minaya's. On paper, this team should be MUCH better than it is.
As for Isiah, in 2006-2007, he got the team playing better than its talent level, primarily because he showed them more confidence and respect than Larry Brown had. But, unlike the Mets, the talent level was just not that good, because the GM (also IT) stank. In 2007-2008, he undid all the recovery work in 2007, and the team regressed back to where it was.
While all this was going on, he did everything else he could, it seemed, to disgrace the franchise (see Anucha Browne-Sanders).
Willie was fired because he was wrong for *this* team. Isiah was fired because he is wrong for *any* team.
Alan
i disagree with you-
i do think the knicks can duplicate what boston did
this year if they changed their philosophy
the celtics took chances and their goal was to win right now
not in 2010.
the celtics traded for the best players available
and took a chance trading for ray allan
(remember he was coming off ankle surgery)
the whole lets get cap room for 2010 thing is just stupid
what a pipe dream
why would a superstar come here in 2010 if we are still pathetic
trade for the best players available
maximize our draft position
that is what the celtics did
forget this whole 2010 thing
do you think the celtics care about cap room in 2010?
they could care less as they hold up their championship trophy
this whole cap room in 2010 gets on my nerves
LETS TRY TO WIN NOW
WE CAN DO IT IF WE ARE CLEVER
and if not then cut ticket prices and make them more affordable while we endure another pathetic season
The Celtics had at the very least a superstar calibur scorer as an offensie lynchpin, and were able to obtain a defensive lynchpin, and a marksmen. That snowball drew other golddigging/goldrushing prospect to add their talent to the mix.
Garnett was the sould of the Celtic's defense, Thibodeau its master architect.
My opinion is that Willie is more like the Head Coach's Isiah Thomas canned when that coach lost the coach versus player wars or never had the coache's respect to begin with.
Minaya, was self effacing in acknowledging that some of his decisions as GM in acquiring players hurt the team. But otherwise I get the impression he is a CRONYIST sort of like Isiah Thomas was. Except he is a CRONYIST with a bunch of spoiled latino players.
OBTW I'm South American and speak Spanish and other languges from that region so I'm not being rascist!
@ NYC 2 infinity
I co-sign your last post! This 2010 talk is pure lunacy!
I for one, want to win NOW! Find and build our own
"STARS." Lets go Knicks.....almost Draft time...
Good things will happen for us!
Alan said:The Celtics' situation is rare (and I hope Danny Ainge sends Kevin McHale a chunk of his championship winnings). First you have to have one star-quality player, then have the assets to acquire two more and, of course, these players have to be available. It helps to have a good buddy running the team of the big-ticket player you're trying to land.
Let's just stop here and agree there is no way the Knicks can duplicate this
Alan, I disagree.
Not that I'm for this but..If we aqquired Rasheed Wallace for Zach
via Dumars/Thomas connection, signed Artest, and make the right
pick/trade on Draft night...Get something ( anything) for Marbury
the Senario would make a similar way to "Duplicate Boston."
I'm not particularly fond of doing this, but it can be done!
I prefer to build a younger team that will be contenders for years to come. Watch Boston end up like the Heat after their Chip!
Willie is better than the NY Mets franchise and I know someone will give him a coaching jobs soon. I think they will go back to their scub ways. More reason to be a Yankee fan.
Isiah needs to apologize to the fans for making our beloved franchise a joke. Cablevision should offer free tickets next year with free snacks.
Boston is now at the top of the NBA once again. Free agency does work wonders. Jealousy as a Knicks fan. One day....One day...
Alan said: And I don't buy the racism angle one bit with either of these men. But I admit I do see a similar bias: fans and the media are intolerant of people who don't win.
This I co-sign. Not only are the media and fans intolerant
of people who don't win, but have to win it all!
Example: How in the world did Joe Torre get run out of town?
Maybe the best coach ever run out of this city!
Could the Knicks turn from worse to first in a summer? I don't believe in fairy tales and what happened to the Boston Celtics is a fairy tale. Could we duplicate that formula - No. I said once and I will say again. Defense is what got Boston it's first ring since 86 not offense. When you play defense you're always in the game. I hope Donnie and D'Antoni see eye-to-eye that defense wins championships and not quick sloppy offensive play in seven seconds or less. We need to develop a defense focused squad that knows how to win games.
@Peaceman
i agree with you that i want the knicks to get younger
but i think that the knicks should just take the best players available either via trade or draft
the whole 2010 makes no sense if you are gonna hire d'antoni as your coach
the best case scenario is to approach it like grocery shopping
find the best players that fit into d;antoni's system and let the chips fall where they may
if we build a winner players will want to come here
having d'antoni trying to coach zach randolph is just plain stupid
trade him for the best players you can get(esp if they are young)
regardless of the contract
lets build a winner here in NY
If you look at the past NBA championship teams: Celtics, Spurs, Pistons, Lakers, Heat they did it via trades and good draft picks not through freeing up salary cap space in 2 years. Unless, you count Miami signing Odom and then trading him for Shaq. However, New York has never had a plan. The organization, the fans have never had a clear goal. I like a plan of dumping salary and luring a free agent in 2010 just so that it gives us a direction unlike the Layden and Thomas eras which were built on quick fixes. To me is it the ideal, no, that would be drafting Mayo, trading for B. Davis, and trading for some defensive minded 4 and 5s (Wilcox, Evans) and a wing player who can actually shoot (Redd, Gordon). Acquiring multiple draft picks this year (for Dorsey) and next year (for Curry). You do that I think you are easily 2 or 3 in the east and could make a legitmate shot at a boston like run.
You guys think this all happened for Boston over night ? We have selective memory Knick fans. Boston had Pierce to start with ( the all star we don't have) and all young talent before this last off season. If they had not acquired all those young assets through the draft in the previous years, they would not have had the players to give other teams. Minny got fleeced but at the same time they got many younger building blocks in return. All of you who dream that we can duplicate Boston's success in 1 year have to ask yourselves.......What do the Knicks have talent-wise that could land us a superstar ? This is going to be a long aggravating process. Stop dreaming.
Alan's right. The Knicks would be very foolish to go all for broke to win next year.
That was Isiah's strategy for his entire tenure, sacrificing draft picks for guys he thought could get them to win now.
What Boston did isn't a formula. It was getting Kevin Garnett, the league's real MVP, who changed the entire psyche of that team. He got them playing team defense. There isn't another player out there who could do that, especially with these Knicks.
Alan's right. The Knicks would be very foolish to go all for broke to win next year.
That was Isiah's strategy for his entire tenure, sacrificing draft picks for guys he thought could get them to win right away.
Plus, what Boston did isn't a formula. It was getting Kevin Garnett, the league's real MVP, who changed the entire psyche of that team. He got them playing team defense. There isn't another player out there who could do that, especially with these Knicks.
@knicks4life
i agree that i want the knicks to have a plan
but i don't think the 2010 cap plan is realistic
we need to retool this roster
get rid of the duplication of small forwards
find or devleop a PG
and get rid of the cancers on this team
randolph,marbury,
get a new attitiude
the problem is that some of these players have always been losers since they entered the NBA
that is why i for shipping out the dead weight no matter the cost.
and please cut or buy out jerome james
his mere presence is a clear reminder of the
dumb decisions of the isiah era
What do you guys think of trading Curry for Darko Milicic.
I know Darko is pretty useless offensively but he is a good shotblocker and rebounder and would complement Zack. Could up Zack's trade value for next year.His contract expires in 2010 unlike Curry. We could probably get another pick or prospect out of the deal too.
I would agree with shipping out players no matter the cost, except that we would be the Bulls post-Jordon. It is not realistic to put a bad team on the floor in NY, purposefully, with the ticket prices and media here. I'm not saying we can't rebuild through the draft, but giving away all the bad attitudes and lazy, no defense playing scrubs on our team would mean dumping Marburry, Randolph, Curry, Richardson, and J. James and then factor in those who just aren't that good in Collins, Morris, Jeffries and that is 2/3 of your whole roster. 2010 is one plan, rebuilding the way PHX did with a smart athletic PG like Davis, a potential franchise talent like Mayo, shooters who can kill you on the wings and defensive guys who can protect the paint and still get out and run and finish on the break is another. Isiah gave us one year fixes to get the fans excited and buying tickets, see Marburry, Curry, Randolph, hiring Larry Brown, etc. but never had a plan. Layden just had no clue.
Ainge's Wonderful Year came courtesy of shedding contracts, drafting players, getting younger, and Kevin McHale. There is no blueprint. Ainge was gifted Garnett by McHale. Its because he had young players on reasonable salaries that he was able to give McHale enough window dressing to save that frankenstein from a visit by a vengeful mob of Minnesotans with pitchforks and torches. And McHale was forced to do the KG deal because he had failed so utterly to put a decent team around Garnett (sound familiar Philly?), that he had to begin a rebuild using his one asset. This is not a blueprint or a plan - its just happenstance, and good buddies. And remember, if a team is willing to give up a franchise player, it generally means they are blowing up and starting over, and that means they want alot of young, cheap players. So no matter what, the best strategy remains getting under the cap for a year with alot of Free Agents, getting younger, building a unified team under one voice.
Now Walsh probably enjoys better relationships around the league than zeke, but I don't see any replication of the Garnett or Gasol trades happening soon. When the Knicks roster is filled with young, good players on their rookie scale contracts (meaning we are young and under the cap) some fairy godmother may come calling. Meanwhile, you still have to get younger, still have to reduce payroll, still have to accumulate picks. 2010 cap room is a plan and a good one. There will be several players available so the market will be fractured and there won't be 6 teams competing for one FA driving the market through the roof. That is a better market than for instance the feeding frenzy around Rashard Lewis.
I am hoping that these workouts of non-lottery players means we're getting another pick(s).
@ Willis
It may be possible that the Knicks are possibly lurking to move down and grab the Suns' 15th overall pick and maybe snapping up Leandro Barbosa or Boris Diaw (two Mike D'Antoni favorites) in the process and their 2nd rounder @ 48! Maybe that is the reason
we are working out non-lottery players?
That means the Suns would have to take a Zach or Curry
contract back! I'm fine with that!
I heard that too Peace. Only problem with that is they have long contracts, past 2010.
Somehow, Seattle's gotta give us some love. They have 5 picks - 4, 24, 32 can yield good players. How many 20 year olds can they have on that team???? Surely they need a steady hand with an expiring contract like Malik Rose on their front line and would be happy to give us their 24th pick and Watson. And Portland is choking on picks too.
@ Willis,
If Durant weilds any power, which I think he does,
scratch Bayless off the #4 and replace it with Augustin,
Durant's former TX point guard!
Durant on Augustin
WOW Willis....I didn't realise the Sonics had that many draft picks? I have to check their roster and see the possibilitys!
Good Blogging dude!
"OBTW I'm South American and speak Spanish and other languges from that region so I'm not being rascist!"
as if to say, somehow, that no south american spanish speakers can be racist.
SURE, BUDDY!
Alan,
You have to stop writing about Baron davis, Ben Gorden,
Ron Artest, T.J. Ford etc, etc, etc.
Forget about comparing willie to isiah, we should be
comparing you to Isiah Thomas.
There are no quick fixes here, no pain, no gain.
Draft an impact player at #6, trade david Lee for
another first round pick & let the contracts expire.
If Joe Dumars is dumb enought to trade rasheed
Wallace (expiring contract) & another piece for
Zach randolph then you do that.
Comparing Willie to Isiah is LUDICROUS! (Of course because I use Firefox I can't click on the link. Um, Alan, Firefox kicks IE's ass and I'm not the only one in the world using it, how about speaking to your IT people?) Willie has class, Isiah has none. It's that simple. Willie got a little dissed in how he was fired (I'm not saying he didn't deserve it just the Mets screwed up how they did it). Isiah deserves to not only get fired but he shouldn't be working in the NBA (or anywhere there are kids). As for 2010 plan, the Knicks gotta be good enough for Lebron to come here and that means making the playoffs by 2009 or having McHale want to give away the farm to Walsh. The most important thing the Knicks can do is get players who care and play the right way. Everything else comes from that. Why we're working out Jordan is beyond me but I still have faith in Walsh. I bet draft night is gonna be interesting.
Sadly, the Knicks aren’t remotely in the same position Boston was in at this time last year. Except that both teams just came off horrible years. Boston had Jefferson, who could anchor a deal for multiple young, cheap players, while keeping Pierce, a certified all-star. There’s no comparison. The Knicks can’t come close to doing what Boston did.
But . . . I’d love to see the Knicks trade down for more first-round picks. I wonder if Portland (#13) might not want to add another very young player? (10 out of 14 players on their roster are 25 or younger.) And the Suns at #15 always seem to do something stupid when a little cash is waved in front of them. I don’t know if either team is actually interested it getting rid of their picks, or what a deal like that would take. But I’d love to see the Knicks try.
FIXERS...CHECK THE PRE-DRAFT 2008
CAMP ON ESPNU RIGHT NOW ...ON CHANNEL 170 ON TIME WARNER!
ALL THE PLAYERS AND COACHES ARE THERE!
THEY ARE BALLING!
Great call, Peace - thanks. Definitely wouldn't have clicked over to that one on my own . . .
@ Wii
'"OBTW I'm South American and speak Spanish and other languges from that region so I'm not being rascist!"
as if to say, somehow, that no south american spanish speakers can be racist.
SURE, BUDDY!'
I can't say I disagree with your statement but I doubt you would know the angle I'm speaking from.
Also note that I mentioned speaking a language beside Spanish and it sure as hell aint Portuguese, French or some European Language. Oh wait they speak languages other that Spanish and European Languages in South America? No!
I suggest you stop and check yourself right there and get back to talking basketball. I think most of the bloggers here would agree that applies to both of us.
Enough said.
Willie Randolph as a person, player, and mgr. has genuinely shown class and dignity. This man has exemplified respect and integrity on a 24/7/365 basis.
My hero Isiah Thomas has demonstrated none of these qualities.
He is the complete opposite. Wow, 2 extremes.
It's a travesty to have their names in the same article.
Isiah ought to be thrown in jail.
(I guess it's a waste of time talking about Isiah at this point.)
* Celtics thoroughly outworked and out-defensed the Lakers. However, Lakers are young and will come back strong.
* I hope that D'Antoni can appreciate that you need D to win the ultimate prize. His game philosophy can get Ws in the season but can only get you so far in the playoffs.
* He needs someone like Hubie Brown, a Thibodeau, or a Fratello to instill defensive philosophy and schemes with the mighty Knicks.
I can't believe that there are people on here complaining about the 2010 plan. For the first time in 10 years we have a plan!
Any plan that involves us somehow trading for the best players and winning now are ludicrous. There are no KGs available this year and we wouldn't have the assets to trade for one anyway.Having money in 2010 is our best chance to get a legitimate superstar.
And if you do look at those past championship teams, especially the ones that didn't implode immediately (heat) then you'll see that maybe they weren't saving for 2010, but they all had cap flexibility. The way the best teams win are b building through the draft, making smart trades, not overpaying for their players, having cap flexibility, trying to find players that work well together, and adding solid veterans to the lineup when necessary. So cap room is a big deal. It's why our only options for improvement the last few years have been trades for players with bad contracts. We haven't been able to add any worthwhile free agents. In the meantime we traded away all our draft picks and kept getting in a deeper hole. The other major mistake we've made under layden and Isiah (especially Isiah) is that we've made panic trades and signings for the "best player available" simply because they were or seemed to be and didn't take into account their contract or how they'd fit with the team.
We need to shed our bad contracts and bad attitudes and see if we can pick up some solid players along the way. pick well in this draft and make a run at a true superstar (lebron) in 2010. Lightning isn't going to strike twice. There isn't going to be another KG on the trading block anytime soon. Our only hope for a genuine superstar is to luck out in the draft or sign lebron in 2010. Worst case scenario with this plan is that we don't sign lebron or wade or bosh in 2010. Well at least then we will have shed our bad contracts and can start over and try and lure good players to ny.
@Mak
lets make the playoffs first.
if d'antoni can translate his regular season
success from phoenix to new york
i would take that.
"Well at least then we will have shed our bad contracts and can start over and try and lure good players to ny"
You don't have to try, players want to play in New York, always have. Despite Isiah's horribly successful effort to run the Knicks straight into the ground, players still wanted to come here, it was just our inability to sign them, due to the very bad cap situation.
So like you said, the 2010 plan is solid for that reason.
D'Antoni came here because of Walsh, players want to come here even more now because of D'Antoni, so hold the course and pass up on immediate risks with long-term implications.
The knicks will always put people in the seats, we've learned that from this past season's abomination. The MSG fans were doing the wave nearing the end of a 33-win season the year prior to this one. There are looking for a reason to cheer.
"you do look at those past championship teams, especially the ones that didn't implode immediately (heat) then you'll see that maybe they weren't saving for 2010, but they all had cap flexibility." - Neil
And what significant free agent did they sign with all that cap room. Hey I'm all for the 2010 and having bundles of cap room so long as: (1) the cupboard is completely empty so that no one in their right mind would sign and (2) we use that money on a legit superstar (like PHX did with Steve Nash and not like the Bucks did with Redd, WIzards did with Arenas, Grizz did with Darko, and on and on). You could also use the cap room to sign a legit supporting star like Orlando did with Rashard Lewis when they already had Howard. But you cannot, expect to sign anyone with cap room alone, the Bulls tried that and couldn't give the money away b/c no one wanted to play there. They ended up signing Ben Freekin Wallace.
I can't believe everyone wants to dump every player off our roster inlcuding our draft pick to shed salary and pick in the 20s, not trade for anyone good b/c they have a long contract, and then expect to sign Lebron in 2010 and have him play with Balkman, Mardy Collins, and Jerome James. Great plan. Yeah people are going to line up around MSG to play with David Lee.
Now that I think about it some more the Lakers signed Shaq and traded an aging Vlade Divac for the draft rights for Kobe. Maybe this 2010 plan isn't such a bad idea after all. The Lakers had made the playoffs the year before and had some good young pieces that helped entice Shaq but with a few solid moves before 2010 maybe history will repeat itself on the East Coast this time. I still say we would be crazy to pass on Melo if Denver wanted to free up cap space and trade him away for anything on our roster.
Knicks4life
Don't second guess your self! Yor first assessment was correct!
2010 is a pipe dream. Players like Lebron, Paul, ect.. can easily get a career ending injury! To repeat myself, by 2010, there will
be more Super Stars made by just playing in the NBA.
People who buy this 2010 hyperbole, act like "GOD said" no more Chris Paul's or Bosh's. No more KG'S.....this league is finished with Brand New Stars!
If that's the ideaology, then in 2010 ...why don't we wait for Durant or Oden in 2014??? Then it will be wait for Leroy Tuttle from Brooklyn the current 4Th grade hoop Wiz, in 2019? Then it will be
Let's wait for Alan "The Tomahawk" Hahn Jr (Who hasn't been born yet..lol Alan) in 2026....you get the picture? NYC 2 infinity
put it best, " we draft the best we can and make a go at it from there with D'Antoni at the helm! BTW...they didn't hire D'Antoni
to rot while making cap room....do any of you? I could be very wrong.. but I doubt it!
JP, not so. Both Eddy's and Zach's contracts run through 2011 (Zach's at $17M, Eddy's at $11M).
Peaceman--Sheed is 33, and he didn't show up at all in the championship series. You think he's a leader? Artest, the loner who was so detested by his teammates in Indiana that not one came to his defense when he was suspended, or later traded? He doesn't seem to have made any friends in Sacramento, either. (I'm not saying he wouldn't help the Knicks--I think D'Antoni could make real use of him here, in the manner of Shawn Marion, who in some ways has a similarly aloof personality. My point right now is different.) Some young draftee, whoever that is--who's going to lead this team? Who's the veteran Knick, a' la Paul Pierce for the Celts, who'll galvanize and ultimately lead the team? Jamal? Stephon? Jerome James? The Knicks have no leader on their roster, and neither of the key acquisitions you name is either. (Please don't claim Rasheed is a leader. He's the main reason Detroit crashed and burned the last four years, and his best days are way behind him.)
Minnesota got a genuine blue-chip low-post scorer in Al Jefferson in return for Garnett. McHale absolutely did the Celts a favor, but just as surely he got some value in return. Al will be a 20/10 or possibly a 25/10 guy for a decade.